Sidemount 101??

[MikeP]

My new to me Nomad will be here by week's end and Marc has agreed to donate some experience on Saturday evening for my first dip.

Any pre dive tips/hints you guys can offer would also be appreciated.
Namely initial tank choice 130s or 85s, required hose lenghts for DS4/TX50, prefered SPG size, if it make a difference and weighting???

Thank


Mike

P.S. Marc, I'll try and get Finn in for his maiden voyage in as well

[JimC]

Welcome to the beginning of the end. :)

Sidemount is so personalized there are no rote answers to your questions. There is no secret formula that works for everyone. There is no team uniform. Sidemount is a paradigm shift from everything you've likely been taught about diving.. but its a refreshing and freeing change. So that in mind:

You're big enough that 130's might work for you, the only way to know is try.. that said I'd start with the 85's.

Hose lengths are all personal and first you have to answer some questions. The first question being do you want to retain the ability to share gas. That is a real question and comes back to the paradigm shift. But there are ways to incorporate a longhose into a sidemount rig without too much convolution. I don't. I prefer the simpler method for bottle removal and a number of reasons. That in mind what I use:
SPG: 6inch hose, pointing up. Air pressure in the hose keeps the SPG (small brass or plastic like the mini-scubapro, the big brass DIR ones don't work) pressed against your pectoral.
Reg: 22inch hose, pointing down. I use a 90deg elbow on the regulator and a boat snap (suicide clip) tied and ziptied to the exhaust T. When in use, routes down in a smooth arc to mouth. When not in use, routes down in a smooth arc and clips off to shoulder in very tight since the snap is secured down against the exhaust T.
LP Acc Hose:
Right Side: 9inch hose, pointing up. This goes under the harness to my power inflater which rests right above my drysuit inflater.
Left Side: 12 inch hose, pointing up. This goes under the harness and curves in an S into drysuit. This should be a 9inch hose, mirroring the right side but I haven't gotten around to replacing it.

Weighting you'll have to figure out on you're own. Its unlikely that you'll need anything. Don't sweat the small stuff. The first fiew dives feel like a mummers farce.. don't let that worry you. Once you get it, you'll never go back. After that, you'll change stuff every dive for a few months until you think you're happy. Then you'll change something else. After something like 200 sidemount dives, I still change crap on a whim to try it out. Remember, have fun.

[Tom Falardeau]

The nice thing with the Nomad is that it works right out of the box. No trim weights required.

As a Nomad owner who has a bunch of cave dives with it under his belt, a few things to add to what Jim said:

a. remove all the padding - useless, useless, useless
b. switch the corrugated inflator hose with the dump valve so you have the inflator hose running upwards on your left side, Armadillo-style, and the dump valve on your shoulder. Rig it so you can find the dump pull while diving - very useful. I lengthened it a bit and ran it through the inner tube segments holding my backup light. I use that to dump instead of the inflator.
c. I dive it with 130s - I'm 5'10.5" - and find I'm just a wee, wee bit foot heavy, which I solved by switching from jetfins to dive rite fins, so that might be a thing to check when you dive it with 130s. With 119s, the trim is absolutely perfect - so perfect it would even make a hardcore DIR guy cry

Consider butt-mounting your can light horizontally using the small d-rings on the back of the pack; we found it was more comfortable and did more for trim than having it on the waist. Depending on the size of your can light, you may need something to counterbalance it on the opposite side if you waist-mount it.

Like Jim said, it's a total paradigm shift. Forget the notion of DIR. Make the rig work for you. Sidemount is designed to go where team diving has no place, so start thinking accordingly. My wife insisted that we retain the 7 foot hose on the right tank, so we have it bungeed to the tank with inner tube sections, with only enough length free to breathe freely. Unlike Jim, for now, I have my left tank 2nd stage bungeed around my neck (hose running directly to the left tank on a short hose & angled fitting, using an Apeks XTX-40 reg configured for lefthand running) with my right tank 2nd stage clipped to the bungee around my neck. Allows for single hand reg switch while on the trigger of the scooter. This may change if I discover it doesn't work in really tight cave. Jim assures me this method has drawbacks, and I tend to take his word for it.

[MikeP]

Tom, are you using the same 9"lp hoses for DS and power inflator or does the Nomad need different hoses than the Dillo?

[Tom Falardeau]

I'm using whatever inflator hoses I have.... meaning the same I use for backmount. The inflator hoses are the least of your worries, hose-length wise.

[MikeP]

Completed two 1.5 hour dives of quarry sidemount this weekend one with Marc and Finn, one solo.

Here is what I have figured out;

1- Sidemount rocks!!!!
2- I am one bouyant diver, LP 85s alone won't sink me, 4lbs extra needed.
I'll try the 130s this weekend


Is anyone one SM ing DS4s??, how do you position your first stages, parrallel or perpendicular to the tanks.
Also how do you positon the tank in relation to your body? valves left to right or up and down?


MikeP

[Tom Falardeau]

DS4 1st stages & SM, presuming you have a left and right tank valve:

Right tank: bottom of reg (diaphragm) towards you, slightly lower than the axis of the tank valve handle so that your SPG on the 6 inch hose is angled towards the body and lays flat against your chest

Left tank: bottom of reg (diaphragm) away from you, slightly higher than the axis of the tank valve handle so that your SPG on the 6 inch hose is angled towards the body and lays flat against your chest.

If you have two right hand tank valves, set them up as described for the right tank; both 1st stages will be on the left of the tank, i.e. inwards on the right tank, outwards on the left tank.

Your tank valves (presuming you have a left and right, not just two rights) should have the rubber valve handle facing away from your body. The bungees will tend to pull them slightly outwards so that if facing straight ahead is noon, your right tank valve handle will be pointing to 1 and your left to 11.

[JimC]

What Tom said.

BtW, welcome to the club.

[Neil]

I just got a Nomad too.. after reading this thread I have a couple of more questions:

With the inflator hose switched to where the dump valve was, at the lower left, it just dangles in front. What do you use to keep it from dangling? Jim said he connects it to the right tank, but with the Nomad it seems that would force the LP hose to twist.

Also did you cut off the 'shoulder strap retaining bands' ... there's one on each side for some odd reason - maybe just to make it match? :)

[MikeP]

I've got mine running up the left side shoulder strap, terminating at the chest
The inflator itself is tied onto the chest strap with 1" bicycle tube.
This is working well for me as the inflator is always in the same exact spot, I'm also able to orally inflate from this position

My inflator hose is 21" so it currently needs to loop down along the tank then under my shoulder strap. I'm going to do the shorter hose this weekend for cleaner hose routing.

MikeP

[JimC]

Mine is on the right. I have the inflator comeing up the right, across to center chest. It goes under my harness and sits just above the drysuit inflator. I have a boltsnap on the end of the inflator which gets clipped off to my left chest d-ring.

[Neil]

Thx for the help!
Did you put neck bolt-snaps on your cylinders? It seems that might make sense for when you unclip the bottom to push them ahead of you through a small hatch or whatever.
Neil

[Tom Falardeau]

Thx for the help!
Did you put neck bolt-snaps on your cylinders? It seems that might make sense for when you unclip the bottom to push them ahead of you through a small hatch or whatever.
Neil

The only time you need neck bolt-snaps is when you're putting your tanks on out of the water. They serve to clip the top of your tanks to the chest d-rings to prevent your bungees from getting extended and worn out by the out-of-water weight of the tanks. In water, the bungees are sufficient to hold the top of your tank when you unclip the bottom to push it in front of you. The chest d-rings get busy enough with all the crap on a Nomad that you don't want to have neck clips unless you actually need them.

[JimC]

Thx for the help!
Did you put neck bolt-snaps on your cylinders? It seems that might make sense for when you unclip the bottom to push them ahead of you through a small hatch or whatever.
Neil

There are two (3) ways to 'go small' on sidemount. Neck snaps are nice for some of it.

Method 1: Unclip the tail of one tank and swing that tank around in front of you. Gets you into moderately small stuff. Doing this with both tanks isn't advised because if you need it, you should be using method 2 (or 3). You can grab the clip on the tail of the tank to control it and use your other hand to push/pull/shove your way though whatever squeeze you are in. Watch out for keyholeing. Neck bungee is sufficient for this.

Method 2: Take one tank off completely. clip it off to you're crotch d-ring. Take the other tank off completely and clip it off and hold it in front of you. Now you can go stupid small and are actually into the realm of no-mounting. I have done a tinny bit of this and when its that small all I can say is you better have your a-game on. Getting stuck is more common than making progress. You want 1 neck clip for the tank hanging off you're ass.. but it needs to be on a small leash so you can jockey the tank up behind your ass with your knees, so it is different than a 'normal' neck clip.

Method 3: No mount. Basically method 2, but with one neutral buoyant tank (or 2 small ones - like AL40 small, banded/hose clammed together), no wing and big ass balls. Often extensive gear mods come with the package such as lack of can light (to big) all the way to no fins. But then, you can crawl though some incredibly small stuff like this.

[MikeP]

Banded AL40s?
Heck if I can't fit both my 130s then I can't see how I'd get more than an ass cheek in.

[JimC]

Very very few people ever start taking both tanks off. Heck, most sidemounters these days don't even do method 1.

[Neil]

Very very few people ever start taking both tanks off. Heck, most sidemounters these days don't even do method 1.

A lot of shipwrecks around here seem to have hatches that were designed be big enough for just a sailor (with no tanks on his back) to climb up a ladder through it to get to another level. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. I hope it doesn't require removing a tank completely.

Edit: Well, maybe one tank. but not two ;)

[Tom Falardeau]

A lot of shipwrecks around here seem to have hatches that were designed be big enough for just a sailor (with no tanks on his back) to climb up a ladder through it to get to another level. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. I hope it doesn't require removing a tank completely.

Edit: Well, maybe one tank. but not two ;)

Man, you're talking about shite I wouldn't do.... shipwrecks just scare me too much to go into 'unclip or take off a tank' or 'no mount' places. Caves are much safer :D

[JimC]

I suggest getting a large number of sidemount dives in before you start taking tanks off. If its small enough to need gear removal, it is very very easy to hang you're self. When I have done it, getting in was the easy part. Taking easily twice as long to get out, usually in zero vis on the line you put down. Even on the line its often difficult to divine the proper exit path. Every time you you are ready to move toward the exit, something else catches and stops you or you keyhole into the wrong place. Backing up constantly. Using you're hands for eyeballs. Entanglement city.. and thats in a cave. Until I did that stuff I didn't know I could get entangled by rock!

While there are a few holes I want to check out on sidemount in the river, I will be doing them with utmost caution and a hefty chunk of overhead experience on sidemount.

[Neil]

b. switch the corrugated inflator hose with the dump valve so you have the inflator hose running upwards on your left side, Armadillo-style, and the dump valve on your shoulder. Rig it so you can find the dump pull while diving - very useful. I lengthened it a bit and ran it through the inner tube segments holding my backup light. I use that to dump instead of the inflator.


Can you dump air from the inflator when it's set up that way? Otherwise it seems you would only have one way to dump air, from your shoulder, which wouldn't be good if you end up in a feet-first ascent...

[Tom Falardeau]

Can you dump air from the inflator when it's set up that way? Otherwise it seems you would only have one way to dump air, from your shoulder, which wouldn't be good if you end up in a feet-first ascent...
Sure you can.

[JimC]

If you are worried about doing a feet first accent, stop diving at the level you are diving at and go back to single tank, rec stuff. That said, yes, you can dump from it. Remember, the wing is bungeeeeeed. It dumps from almost any orientation just fine.

[Neil]

Oh, I couldn't wait any more and tried the Nomad out last night, and I found that air didn't come out of the inflator when I pressed the dump button (presumably because it was below me, lower than the wing). the sholder dump worked just fine though. But I had the inflator attached to my chest strap so I couldn't hold it up higher than the wing, maybe thats the problem.

The way doubles put all the weight towards your head, I think any diver would have trouble if they didn't have a rear dump valve. Maybe it won't be a problem with the Nomad.

I love how there's a lot less water resistance which lets you go faster with less effort, and how the tanks are at your center of gravity, making it so easy to be in trim. Wow. I just hope the setup is suitable for more than cave diving.

[Tom Falardeau]

I've got my inflator bungeed to the chest d-ring, leaving me enough "pull space" to get it high enough to dump when I need to do it that way. Also, tilting your body to the right to elevate your left will help. If you don't have enough room to tilt your body, it means you're in an overhead and the feet-first ascent problem is non-existant :D

Mostly, I use the shoulder dump.

[Neil]

Unlike Jim, for now, I have my left tank 2nd stage bungeed around my neck (hose running directly to the left tank on a short hose & angled fitting, using an Apeks XTX-40 reg configured for lefthand running) with my right tank 2nd stage clipped to the bungee around my neck. Allows for single hand reg switch while on the trigger of the scooter. This may change if I discover it doesn't work in really tight cave. Jim assures me this method has drawbacks, and I tend to take his word for it.

I've been trying this method and clipping the right-tank regulator to the bungee just to the right of the mouthpeice. But then I find it hangs almost out in front of my face and I think they might get tangled or caught on something. I like how you always have the two regs right there in front of your face if you need to switch. But I find it pulls on the bungee which is a bit uncomfortable.

Also does the regulator hose from your right tank get caught on the SPG and pull against your mouth? I'm finding that a bit annoying when I move my head around.

[Tom Falardeau]

Also does the regulator hose from your right tank get caught on the SPG and pull against your mouth? I'm finding that a bit annoying when I move my head around.

Nope, don't find that being a problem.

[Neil]

Nope, don't find that being a problem.

Thats good to hear :D

[ChrisS]

How did those 130's work for ya? I am considering breaking my double 130's but unsure at this point.


Completed two 1.5 hour dives of quarry sidemount this weekend one with Marc and Finn, one solo.

Here is what I have figured out;

1- Sidemount rocks!!!!
2- I am one bouyant diver, LP 85s alone won't sink me, 4lbs extra needed.
I'll try the 130s this weekend


Is anyone one SM ing DS4s??, how do you position your first stages, parrallel or perpendicular to the tanks.
Also how do you positon the tank in relation to your body? valves left to right or up and down?


MikeP

[MikeP]

Never did the 130s, mostly dove pumped up lp85s and a stage, that gave me lots of gas.
Maybe Tom and Jim will chime in, I know they sidemount 130s

Mike

[Tom Falardeau]

Jim doesn't SM 130s, although he may have at some point - memory is a thing that seems to forget stuff these days. I've SM'd 130s, but find them long enough to cause trim issues and be uncomfortable. Last cave trip, I stuck to the 119s only - even though I had the 130s in the back of the truck. I think my 130s are going to be strictly single tank recreational in future. The extra range I've gained going from backmount to sidemount means I'm getting further on SM 119s than backmount 130s at this point. If you're truly looking for the SM experience, i.e. going in tight, the smaller diameter tanks are much better. If my range keeps improving, I'll probably step down to something in the 7.25 inch diameter in the future. May not look like much, but taking that 1.5 inches off your side to side profile can make a difference in a tight section of cave.

[JimC]

+1 what Tom said. Dove them, got smaller tanks.

Mind you, I don't sidemount anything but LP85/PST E7-100's or smaller now. Thats all the gas I need for 90% of my dives. The caves up here are 20 feet deep and 100's give me upwards of 5000 feet of penetration (a brutal long swim). In Florida, I find I am limited more by the amount of deco I want to do that the gas in my tanks and stages are always an option for another 1000 feet of penetration each.. and two are not that hard to carry if I feel like swimming back to the hinkle.

But thats my specialized, specific to me argument.. I can't say what your needs would be.