Harry Potter VII

[Dale]

So, how many of you have the book? Who went to collect it at midnight?

How many read the illegal copy?

How many have been frantically reading all of the preceeding books in preparation?

How many don't care at all and are angry with my even bringing it up, =P?

[Tom Falardeau]

I'll wait until the movie comes out.

[scubagirl]

I bought it Sunday afternoon and have read about 6 chapters so far. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to read these days so it will take me longer than the usual 2 days to finish it.

[Terry]

Still waiting for my copy from Amazon. Don't you DARE give anything away.

[Tom Falardeau]

Well, if you're asking me to not give anything away, you *know* I will, so here goes:

Voldemort is really Darth Vader (yes, that's what he looks like under the snazzy helmet), and gets redeemed by the good side of the Force after a fight with his son Harry Potter, better known as Skywalker of Tatooine.

The Dursley's are, of course, Jabba the Hutt and Co.

Hermione poses for a Playboy spread in their summer issue "Girls of Hogwarts"

Ron comes out of the closet and begins a new career as a Bette Midler impressionist.

Draco Malfoy succeeds St?phane Dion as leader of the Evil...er Liberal Party of Canada. Dion disappears and is never heard from again.

Hagrid succumbs to his true calling as child psychologist and gets his own afternoon TV show.

Dumbledore was seen on a beach near Rio wearing a mustache and goatee, belying news of his death. He was apparently accompanied by a couple of bikini-clad floosies with wands tucked into their g-strings.

Hogwarts was turned into a Bed & Breakfast, but due to exorbitant municipal taxes, was forced to close down and sell to the government, which promptly turned it into a convention centre and hotel. At last reports, that venture was costing the taxpayer in excess of $100 million per year, but our bureaucrats were allowed to enjoy the beauty of the loch at our expense during their "retreats".

And now you know it all

[Terry]

Finally. One of the movies is going to be worth seeing.

[rwhitbread]

Finished it yesterday.
:jawdrop:

Won't spoil it for you though.:roll:

I'll just wait patiently unitl you all have finished, before we start the discussions.:biggrin:

[Dale]

I wouldn't have been able to read it right away, so I decided that instead of resenting everyone else reading it around me, I would research the spoilers and see if my theories were right, and be able to participate in the discussions after that.

I am more interested in reading the audiobook anyway.

and yes, people READ audiobooks *prepared to get into a snippy discussion with anyone wanting to call me on this pet peeve of mine, just warning you*

[Tom Falardeau]

Do you also listen to written books? :p

[Dale]

the voices in my head love me, yes.

=D

[Tom Falardeau]

the voices in my head love me, yes.

=D

For some strange, inexplicable reason, I am not surprised. :D

[Dale]

surprised that I have voices, or surprised that they love me, =P?

[scubagirl]

OK, I finished Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows yesterday. I found it read very much like a movie script. Thoughts?

[Tom Falardeau]

Thoughts?

Nah.. I'll wait until the movie comes out. So many books (most of them garbage) so little time.

[Dale]

OK, I finished Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows yesterday. I found it read very much like a movie script. Thoughts?

I found the author was trying to wrap up a whole lot of theory really quickly, and this is after the sixth book functioning as a large pre-view. I read it twice this week actually (yes, twice in the same week...I took a lot of time off from life in order to pull this off) in order to catch it all.

I also found that as a way to "tie it all in together" she was referrencing to past books, but mostly from the first one. Funny how the memory works, eh? We are drawn to the first book more often in flashbacks or allusions, and it summarises the whole series....hmmm...

Did you catch some errors? The funniest one I found was when a minor character proclaimed (in German) "He is no longer Caucasian!" instead of "He no longer lives here!"

*the word was supposed to be heiss, instead of weiss - which was written in the book. =)


please pardon the spelling errors...it's late and I'm tired,

[owlbill]

Did you catch some errors? The funniest one I found was when a minor character proclaimed (in German) "He is no longer Caucasian!" instead of "He no longer lives here!"

*the word was supposed to be heiss, instead of weiss - which was written in the book. =)

I am sure it has been done, but that should be sent to the publisher......no, the editing crew. :oopssign:

[scubagirl]

I did find a few errors that slipped past the editors, but that seems to happen pretty often in publishing.

I almost wish I had time to re-read all the books because with some of the references I only vaguely remembered what had happened.

[Terry]

I thought she did an admirable job of broadening the scope and scale of the story, introducing a major new subplot that managed to add to but remain consistent with the previous books. Interestingly, Ron grew as a character while Harry stayed relatively static.

Favourite surprise thread resolution (without spoiling it for those still in progres - the Snape/Dumbledore story.

[Tom Falardeau]

Did you catch some errors? The funniest one I found was when a minor character proclaimed (in German) "He is no longer Caucasian!" instead of "He no longer lives here!"

*the word was supposed to be heiss, instead of weiss - which was written in the book. =)


What does heiss, meaning hot, have to do with living anywhere? Someone want to post the whole sentence for me?

(yes, Dale, I'm a native German speaker :D)

[rwhitbread]

SPOILER WARNING

She certainty got off to a quick start, and showed a predisposition to kill off minor supporting characters whose story line she couldn't spin into a decent ending.
(A.K.A. the soap opera method...kill them if you're not going to use them again otherwise put them in a coma). It got a little tiring. It almost seemed like she wanted to kill of certain characters just for the shock.

I too liked the wrap up on the Snape.

I also thought she sort of copped out a bit and borrowed too much from some specific theological dogma. But otherwise a good read for what it was; a children?s book that grew into a teenager romp, but never really grew up.

[Dale]

What does heiss, meaning hot, have to do with living anywhere? Someone want to post the whole sentence for me?

(yes, Dale, I'm a native German speaker :D)

Native German speaker!!! Awesome! I didn't know that. I knew you were stationed in Germany, but I didn't realise you might have spoken it before English/French, or while you were learning English/French.

I was dating a German guy for awhile and spent a few months living with him overseas. My German did hit the strong beginner (I could follow all small talk, some political conversations, ask simple questions, and not have a clue what the teenagers were saying ever)...a few years ago, so I am very rusty.

Unfortunately, the book is at the out-of-town house, and I am currently at my in-town-house. But, dict.leo.org claims that heiss means live...

...but live as in the adjective, not the noun. Ooops...didn't look at that one carefully.

So, what does "Wie heissen sie?" mean then?

[Tom Falardeau]

Native German speaker!!! Awesome! I didn't know that. I knew you were stationed in Germany, but I didn't realise you might have spoken it before English/French, or while you were learning English/French.

I was dating a German guy for awhile and spent a few months living with him overseas. My German did hit the strong beginner (I could follow all small talk, some political conversations, ask simple questions, and not have a clue what the teenagers were saying ever)...a few years ago, so I am very rusty.

Unfortunately, the book is at the out-of-town house, and I am currently at my in-town-house. But, dict.leo.org claims that heiss means live...

...but live as in the adjective, not the noun. Ooops...didn't look at that one carefully.

So, what does "Wie heissen sie?" mean then?

It means "what's your name?" :D

Edit: I see where that online dictionary mislead you.... a definition of heiss as in "live" wire.... amusing. German needs context, or it gets funny really fast.

[Terry]

SPOILER WARNING

I didn't think it was so much a case of specific theological dogma; it was the underlying narrative that provides the foundation of pretty much every major religion myth, including Christianity, the Golden Bough, Lord of the Rings, the Ojibway Creation Legend, Star Wars...all tell the same tale. The passage from childhood to adulthood through the Quest, the father figure who at first appears to betray but is then redeemed, the blood sacrifice, the resurrection (real or allegorical), and triumph over evil. I don't think it's meant to be "religious", per se...it just taps into one of our species' fundamental storylines.

If you've not read it, check out Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces" for one of the best analyses of the Great Myth you will ever read.

[rwhitbread]

SPOILER WARNING

I didn't think it was so much a case of specific theological dogma; it was the underlying narrative that provides the foundation of pretty much every major religion myth, including Christianity, the Golden Bough, Lord of the Rings, the Ojibway Creation Legend, Star Wars...all tell the same tale. The passage from childhood to adulthood through the Quest, the father figure who at first appears to betray but is then redeemed, the blood sacrifice, the resurrection (real or allegorical), and triumph over evil. I don't think it's meant to be "religious", per se...it just taps into one of our species' fundamental storylines.

If you've not read it, check out Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces" for one of the best analyses of the Great Myth you will ever read.



SPOILER ALERT

In Rowling's case she went a little too literal with the protagonist redemption/resurrection elements considering she really didn't place her protagonist into the position of really needing redemption (Harry just didn't slide enough to the dark side) in the lead up novels. Her use of the element worked, but was far less elegant and logical than I would have expected; especially considering the improvement in her writing skills since the first book's release.

Don't get me wrong I think it's a fine, youth oriented, reworking of the classic quest genre. I can't help but wonder, if she hadn't been pressured by the cinematic side of the "phenom", if there could have been a bit more. The story lines she started working towards in the books five and six afforded enough material for an eight or nine book series. These "missing" installments might have given her more to work with for her final in the series.

I felt book seven was rushed, awkward, in that it left far too many questions and not enough answers, in addition it left her protagonist characters under developed, and incomplete. Anytime I encounter a series that requires a massive jump forward in time to finish up the story line, it says to me, 'I had a lot more, but the publishers and movie folks wanted to end it now.'

As to Tolkien I felt that he over used the redemption element to the point that it bordered on common place, and quite frankly, became less of the important impact than it should have been; I mean in LOTR EVEYONE went through crisis of belief and needed redemption. It was a bit of over kill.

We don't even want to talk about Lucas mangling of the classic quest. He took elements of the quest, combined with spaghetti westerns, threw in a pinch of Saturday morning radio soap opera, beat it into a loose plot, over produced it, and buried it all in special effects. (Even the novels were tripe). He couldn?t even stick to his own original time lines for crying out loud.

Any I digress.....

I will confess that I haven't read Campbell dissertation on the classic quest, but I'll see if I can track down a copy and give it a go.

Cheers!

[Tom Falardeau]

Okay guys, let's sum this up quickly before the rest of us get nauseous.

We'll leave the last line to Mr. D. Vader, Esq:

"Luke, I am your father"

[scubagirl]

Would have been more interesting if Snape was his real father ;)

[Tom Falardeau]

Would have been more interesting if Snape was his real father ;)


Well, if we're going to go from the sublime to the ridiculous (always a good idea, IMHO - the world is far too sublime for my taste), how about a little poll.... if you were to be a Harry Potter character, who would you most likely be?

I'll start:

I'd be a Dementor - I suck the life out of interesting threads :D

[rwhitbread]

Well, if we're going to go from the sublime to the ridiculous (always a good idea, IMHO - the world is far too sublime for my taste), how about a little poll.... if you were to be a Harry Potter character, who would you most likely be?

I'll start:

I'd be a Dementor - I suck the life out of interesting threads :D

You got that right:roll:


Me,

Probably Neville....everything happens to me:roll:

[Terry]

"she really didn't place her protagonist into the position of really needing redemption..."

Ah, but the divine innocent doesn't need "redemption". Christ, Luke, Frodo, the Buddha, Harry...they're already virtuous, and need only overcome doubt and fear, WITHOUT assurance of success.

I agree that the final book was a bit "plotty". I'm guessing that two of her literary models, conscious or unconscious, were current British detective fiction (which tend to rely on narrative by sequential revelation) and Dickens, who cheerfully loaded thread on thread on thread. But Dickens was criticized for the same thing in his day (and currently, for that matter), and has still weathered the years rather well.

As for the original Star Wars...

"...he took elements of the quest, combined with spaghetti westerns, threw in a pinch of Saturday morning radio soap opera, beat it into a loose plot, over produced it, and buried it all in special effects."

Jeez, you say that like it's BAD thing! De gustibus non est disputandum...it worked for me, even if it did reek a bit too earnestly of the Golden Bough.

"if you were to be a Harry Potter character, who would you most likely be?"

That's easy. I'd be Professor Poseidon from "Prisoner of Azkhaban", the eccentric but amiable Instructor of Sub Aquatic Sorcery at Hogwart's. (I understand that those pages were inexplicably missing in some of the Canadian printings.)

[Terry]

"I suck the life out of interesting threads..."

Well, the sentence starts accurately, but loses its way after the first two words.

Hah! Sorry, T, couldn't resist. Don't GIVE me lines like that to work with.

[Tom Falardeau]

Funny... but both Terry and Rick strike me more as two similar versions of Vernon Dursley.......

[rwhitbread]

"De gustibus non est disputandum" I haven't seen that one pulled out in a literary discussion about plot substance, but I guess it's appropriate as most of us make these little observations based on our own personal tastes.

And BTW, Frodo FAILED in his battle with the ring, and gave himself up to the ring and the dark side in the end. It was Smeagol who, ironically through selfish want, ended up destroying the ring. Hence Frodo never really earns his redemption and slides from the black and white world of pure innocent into the much more interesting and complex word of shades of gray; a major reason he suffered after the ring was destroyed, and ultimately had to leave middle earth.


Funny... but both Terry and Rick strike me more as two similar versions of Vernon Dursley.......

1st answer,

Easy there Tommy boy. I thought this was a civilized discussion board. Insults like that could be construed as fightin words.;-)

2nd answer,

Back under the stairs there boy and be quiet.

[Terry]

" And BTW, Frodo FAILED in his battle with the ring..."

As Christ succumbed to doubt. In some iterations of the great myth, the hero MUST fail, having exhausted his own spiritual resources, in order to be succored by ... whatever. The Force. God. The Eagles. The Greater Thing - the lesson being that one's own resources, even brought to their utmost limit, are not enough, and that one must abandon all, include the hope of winning, in order to win.

Vernon Dursley? Hmm. Can't see the parallel, myself.

[rwhitbread]

" And BTW, Frodo FAILED in his battle with the ring..."

As Christ succumbed to doubt. In some iterations of the great myth, the hero MUST fail, having exhausted his own spiritual resources, in order to be succored by ... whatever. The Force. God. The Eagles. The Greater Thing - the lesson being that one's own resources, even brought to their utmost limit, are not enough, and that one must abandon all, include the hope of winning, in order to win.

Vernon Dursley? Hmm. Can't see the parallel, myself.


I'm taking my portion of this discussion into PMs as I do not want to spoil the book for those who have not read it yet, and my next few points reveal too much of the plot.

If you wish to be included, but if I use Tom as a gauge, I doubt you will, in the discussion please let me know.

[Tom Falardeau]

Rick, my boy, I see you removed the challenge to a duel. Wise choice. I would have brought something along the lines of an IDI Desert Eagle, not a wand. In the time it would take you to do an abracadabra, I'd be able to empty the mag :D

Never come to a gunfight armed with a little stick.

Now back to sucking the life out of everything

[rwhitbread]

WARNING out of context alert.

I am about to quote Tom but take the quote completely out of context....just becase it's fun to do...:roll:



Now back to sucking

;-)

[Tom Falardeau]

Be content that I leave you such obvious means of taking cheap shots. I figured trying to be subtle wouldn't work.

[Dale]

I'm taking my portion of this discussion into PMs as I do not want to spoil the book for those who have not read it yet, and my next few points reveal too much of the plot.

If you wish to be included, but if I use Tom as a gauge, I doubt you will, in the discussion please let me know.

please include me!

I enjoyed reading the analysis about Harry. Some of the points were ones I was *trying* to pinpoint, but couldn't quite word properly. Thank you.

Dumbledore's "fall" was also interesting to watch. In the first book he was a powerful, yet aloof figure of pure strength and righteousness. By the fifth book he was starting to become inept in the face of the Ministry, or too distracted to run his school properly. In the sixth, he quickly became the mentor-who-must-die archetype, and by the seventh he became a regular man who made mistakes and has failings, and who recognises the greatness in Harry.

Harry is still 17 at this point. I'm sure a part of his, upon hearing that, just shrugged with a non-commital "like, sure...whatever."

I read the book twice that week actually - Dumbledore's sudden humanity threw me for a loop the first time (and there were a few other points as well that I felt a second run-through would help me understand better).

I also agree that the series could have had one or two other books - or one fewer major storyline, and more space for explanation.

Meh, I liked it though (so so much better than the sixth book)...and I'll check out that book Terry suggested.

[Terry]

One of the things that myths do is walk us through the transitional moments in an individual's life. One of the biggies is the evolution of a relationship with parents, which moves from absolute uncondition love, admiration and dependence, to disillusionment, anger and a sense of betrayal (at both their fallibility and their mortality), to (hopefully) resolution, based on our acceptance of them as...well, mortal and fallible and flawed. We saw that in both Harry's relationship with his surrogate father, and in his memory of his own dad, as glimpsed through the Pensieve and Snape's memory of him.

[Dale]

One of the things that myths do is walk us through the transitional moments in an individual's life. One of the biggies is the evolution of a relationship with parents, which moves from absolute uncondition love, admiration and dependence, to disillusionment, anger and a sense of betrayal (at both their fallibility and their mortality), to (hopefully) resolution, based on our acceptance of them as...well, mortal and fallible and flawed. We saw that in both Harry's relationship with his surrogate father, and in his memory of his own dad, as glimpsed through the Pensieve and Snape's memory of him.

surrogate father as in Sirius or Dumbledore...though, the analysis can apply to both. =)

[Terry]

As in both. Sorry, shoulda been fatherS.

[rwhitbread]

One of the things that myths do is walk us through the transitional moments in an individual's life. One of the biggies is the evolution of a relationship with parents, which moves from absolute uncondition love, admiration and dependence, to disillusionment, anger and a sense of betrayal (at both their fallibility and their mortality), to (hopefully) resolution, based on our acceptance of them as...well, mortal and fallible and flawed. We saw that in both Harry's relationship with his surrogate father, and in his memory of his own dad, as glimpsed through the Pensieve and Snape's memory of him.

I think she fixated too much on this single facet of the theme and failed to fully develop Harry in his own right. Given the tasks laid out before the character, the opportunity to investigate many more of these transitional moments was lost in her flurry to end the story. She actually needed to skip ahead nineteen years just to show that her main character actually DID mature into an adult. I would have preferred to see the transition first hand.

Take Harry's experimentation with using the "unforgivable" curses. His first attempts failed, as he did not really "Want" to hurt his intended victim, but he is finally able to harness his hate and perform these by the end of the final book. That is a significant transition point when one matures to realize that sometimes a little evil for the greater good is needed. It was glossed over.

Tolkien allowed all of his characters much more intimate exposures; for example when Sam dons the ring and immediately sees himself exercising his will over others, and Pippins uncontrollable desire to look into the Palantir.

It would have been a bit more interesting seeing Harry dance just a bit closer to that line; perhaps earlier in the book. There was an opportunity to take the character right to the very edge then, with the help of his two friends, avoid the plunge. A missed opportunity was with Belatrix Lestrange. There was a character that was perfectly set, through the storyline, to have Harry fully let go on. It would have been even more in line with Harry's preparation for the eventual redemption to have him slip over that edge a bit and be taught, by his two redeeming friends, that his anger and arrogance, and darker feelings need to be both confronted and controlled before he can complete his "quest". (a la Thomas Covenant/Luke Skywalker).

The genre allows for a main character to go from good to evil then back again, in fact it is probably one of the central themes of the mythical quest, that many authors fail to fully explore.

Maybe in her next series; you know the one... The story that takes place nineteen years later when Harry's sons stumble upon Harry's penseive and see their father through his own memories.........:roll:

[Terry]

Lots of narrative roads not taken, for sure. And no two readers will agree on which path was overused and which was not developed enough. As a guy whose parents were killed by an evil wizard in my youth, however, I'm pretty pleased with her choices.

I think her choices may have been dictated by her decision to stick more or less to the same audience age group for the duration of the series. Unlike T.H. White's Arthurian series, or the LOTR, the writing and plotting don't seem to refocus from younger to older readers over the course of the story. Killing Harry off, or having him dance TOO close to the flame, might not work for that group.

[rwhitbread]

Lots of narrative roads not taken, for sure. And no two readers will agree on which path was overused and which was not developed enough. As a guy whose parents were killed by an evil wizard in my youth, however, I'm pretty pleased with her choices.

I think her choices may have been dictated by her decision to stick more or less to the same audience age group for the duration of the series. Unlike T.H. White's Arthurian series, or the LOTR, the writing and plotting don't seem to refocus from younger to older readers over the course of the story. Killing Harry off, or having him dance TOO close to the flame, might not work for that group.

I see your point there but am tempted to respond with;

"And just how is killing off five of the protangonists
mentor/protectors (not to mention a more than few fellow students and his favored pet to boot) not refocusing from younger to older readers".

However, if I were to agree with that parameter, than I would have to admit that finishing off the series with this book, and not taking Harry too deep into the darkness within the human condition would be appropriate.